In an exclusive interview after his arrival from Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF), ace film-maker, Kunle Afolayan bared it all to Thenetng as he spoke on his experience at the festival, movie critics, future projects, family and many more.
READ: Kunle Afolayan’s ‘The CEO’ is a contemporary parable on reality TV and the supernatural
Thenetng: Good to have you Kunle
Kunle Afolayan: It’s a pleasure
Thenetng: How was your trip to Toronto for TIFF (Toronto International Film Festival)?
Kunle Afolayan: It was a great experience and it was a big exposure for Nigeria and the Nollywood industry.
Thenetng: So, having participated in the first city to city programme dedicated to Nollywood and having rubbed shoulders with fellow film-makers from Nigeria and also from other parts of the world, what would you say are the likely positive outcomes of this city to city programme you have just witnessed?
Kunle Afolayan: Well, first of all let me say thank to you to Lagos State government for agreeing to host this event because it’s one thing for TIFF to recognise and identify the states it’s another thing to get support from the state government. This edition, I’m very aware that Lagos state government supported.
And we also had a stand. That’s the first time Nigerian would be having a pavilion in Toronto Film Festival courtesy Lagos State government so we should give them their credit.
The takeaway for me really, I’ve been to a lot of festivals but I’m glad that the festival hosted different generation of Nigerian film-makers. Quite a number of them are first-time directors and it’s their first feature and it’s premiered in Toronto. I have an idea of the feeling that comes with such. In 2007, Irapada my first film premiered at London Film Festival and Pan-African Film Festival, Los Angeles and I was filled with ‘I have arrived’ kind of feeling. Few years after, I would check the film and I’d feel we’re really not there yet.
Such platform exposes you to meeting with people you probably wouldn’t have met in your life even as a filmmaker. If you’re the type that is curious, you’ll get to explore all of those avenues available. But here, the filmmakers bonded well, I got to meet some of the young directors, Abba Makama and all of them.
Now we’re out there because the kind of publicity is big, it takes you to the world. But what do we do after this, where is this gonna take us? This is the area of concern for me, and also it’ll be nice for filmmakers to understand that, that platform has its own politics and ways. At the end of the day, it’s all show and at the same time it’s all business. The more you have that in your head, the better, so that you don’t get carried away.
Thenetng: Now that you mentioned showbiz, show and business, Nollywood has so far, to an extent, been about show and the business part is lacking.
Kunle Afolayan: It’s not well structured and if it’s gonna change, it’s gonna change to what? How do we maximise the potential of what we have on ground? In TIFF, look at all of those Hollywood actors, they come in their tinted light, they put them in Limo and all of that. That is business. All of those paparazzi thing is structured and it’s funded by the studios.
That’s why sometimes, when people look at a film and they try to blame the commercial aspect of it, I think it’s unfair because here, most of the films are done with personal funds and the return on investments is even are never guaranteed.
CEO has done a few weeks in the cinema, it’s been out of some cinemas after five weeks and of course the BOI N50m have to be paid back. The film somehow has grossed about N60m but by the time they put cutlass to the N60m, what would come back to Golden Effects would possibly be about N25m or less. Where do I now make the rest of the money to pay back the BOI money and then recoup our own investment from all of this.
I think filmmakers need to start thinking out of the box and I’ll give that kudos to someone like Mo Abudu who is using all her strength to commercialise her content. You won’t blame such people. I say to people, different films have different audiences. Some people believe strongly in drama as a genre, some people would rather do comedy. AY would do plastic comedy and he will get away with it because he is doing it for commercial purpose and the people who are watching it want to see it and they’ll pay for it. So, that is one genre. I think it’s high time we stopped generalising when it comes to film because I realise a lot of people in this country who call themselves critics and reviewers have little or no knowledge about film. They just watch it from layman’s eyes.
There are some films you can’t put side by side to compare, some films are story-driven, some films are acting-driven, some people are cinematic-driven. There are different genres to all of this. The business existing structure needs to be a bit enhanced. I’m glad that the cinema chain is growing, that seems like the only genuine distribution platform we have at the moment. DVD is a no-go area, online is also porous because anything you put there gets copied.
Thenetng: Cuts in: If I can come in here, what happened to your partnership with Gabosky as regards the distribution of your film?
Kunle Afolayan: Well, the partnership is still intact but I can tell you that I don’t want to be in Gabosky’s shoes right now because I don’t think the guy is even sleeping, because he’s been fighting this piracy thing and he’s still on it.
That’s why there is no point when you make this film, you give it to the distributor and he can’t really make any substantial return out of it. So, at the moment, the kudos should go to the film house, Film One, Silverbird cinema, Silverbird distribution, Genesis cinema, Genesis distribution, Blu Pictures and all of these guys who are making sure that the cinema distribution platform is existing and is running. So, that is where we are now.
Thenetng: If you talk to some filmmakers, they will tell you that these cinemas houses are actually fleecing them, that the percentage they offer them for their films is quite ridiculous but, if you look at it from the other side, you also have to realise that it’s a business for them. Where do you stand as regards this, do you think that the filmmakers who complain who say that they are being fleeced by these distribution chains are correct. Or do you think as a businessman that you are, would you say that this is business?
Kunle Afolayan: For me, I’ll say it is what it is. That is one existing distribution platform. Do they totally rely on Nollywood content to run, I’ll say No. Can they do without Nollywood content, I’ll say Yes. So, it’s up to the filmmaker to wait, look at it critically and say, ‘Ok, I’m not even shooting this film for cinema, I wanna go straight online, or I’m not shooting this film for cinema, I wanna go straight to DVD. Really, nothing is cast in stone when it comes to negotiation.
There are quite a number of indigenous films that will compete side by side with any Hollywood film. Those Hollywood films have budget, they pump a lot of money into publicity for their films. A lot of our own films, because this is our primary market, the budget for publicity and all of that is very little. Some people don’t even consider any budget for such. Those are the things that determine negotiation between the exhibitors, distributors and the content owners.
In my case, do I want to continue to show my film in the cinemas? 100% yes because those films are primarily shot to show in cinema. So far, I’ve gone round, I’ve distributed with almost all the existing distributors and my film has screened in all the existing cinemas. And I think they should continue because there are more cinemas coming up.
Thenetng: Talking about films now, let’s come back to the CEO. I read a comment somewhere, somebody said that there was this line that was spoken by Wale Ojo. I remember that when I watched the film and he said that line, I laughed. And then the person said, that is the reaction that line elicits from many people but it seems you meant something else with that line when he says ‘Oyinbo I’m not your brother’. That it has some form of racial undertone to it, that it is not to be heard and laughed at. How would you address that?
Kunle Afolayan: Well, I don’t think it’s a racial thing. Look at it from when Jomo was addressing the guy as ‘Mozongo’. ‘Mozongo’ means ‘white guy’ in a not derogatory way. If you say Oyinbo, is it derogatory? Oyinbo means ‘white guy’. In this case, the guys are having competition and they have been having headlock and it’s just the two of them. He has provoked him to the point where he needs to let him know there is a boundary. Different people will perceive it differently.
But as a director, for me, I think it’s just a way to say ‘can you shut up, we’re not brothers’. And really, they’re not brothers. Realistically, Nigeria and South Africa, there is this competition thing between us and I don’t think it is necessary. Those are some of the things we try to portray in this and you realise that in the end, Kola is the one that tried to help him out of his predicament.
Thenetng: Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, your last three films, Figurine, October 1st and CEO have actually been mystery dramas, is this a trend that we should expect from Kunle Afolayan going forward or are you looking to do something comedy like AY, plastic, or something like The Wedding Party?
Kunle Afolayan: You see, you people are wrong now. Especially some of you journalists who would not pay attention to details. I shot Phone Swop after Figurine. Phone Swop is comedy and it was well received as comedy. I did October 1 after. Most of these films are different genre. When I did Irapada, it was a drama. Then I did Figurine which was a thriller. I did Phone Swop which was a comedy. I did October 1 which was psychological thriller. And this one, CEO, is like mystery thriller.
Thenetng: Cuts in… But we can see thriller, thriller, thriller
Kunle Afolayan: Look, for me, my head (touches head). You can see I’m wearing black. My head is sort of messed up because when I’m thinking a lot of times… it’s easy to think positive. A lot of times we always pray for positivity and we don’t ever check that there are two sides to the coin.
So, when I look at life, you see some of those things in my film. But, don’t also forget that I’m not a scriptwriter but a lot of times when I give scriptwriters brief, of course they follow my brief. They are the writers, so most of those things, they put it down which is the foundation, then I tweak and mend and build it to a full-fledged movie.
I’ve just been commissioned by DSTV to shoot three films, but they are TV films and I’m looking to play different genre. In fact, there is a particular story that, it’s not a thriller, but it’s a story I really like and I’m saying to myself, ‘Ehen they’ll say he has come to kill somebody again’. But people die everyday, I don’t know why people try to shy away from the reality of life.
For me, I am not a one-genre director or filmmaker, and this has been proven. You’ll see most of my films. It’s just that an average African or Nigerian is superstitious and when you tell your stories and they see that somebody die in this one and another one, they’ll tag you to be a killer-director and that is not what it is. But honestly, if that is a genre that I’m comfortable with, I’ll continue to do it.
Because I always do press conference, some sort of publicity before my film, I always let out the reason why I’m doing a particular genre and I think that should be respected. But this time I’m looking to do comedy, to do drama, especially with this TV films that I wanna do.
And my own major film, next one, it’s going to be a thriller.
Thenetng: (cuts in with a joke and chuckles)… Oh again. How long from now?
Kunle Afolayan: Maybe next year. Hopefully, if I’m able to get a fund. It’s going to be a yoruba epic film set in the 17th century.
Thenetng: The three films you talked about that DSTV commissioned, how soon will they be shot?
Kunle Afolayan: We’re gonna shoot this year because they need to run like in few months. The three films will be shot before December.
Thenetng: Going forward, what would you say is Nollywood’s most pressing need at the moment?
Kunle Afolayan: What do we need? I don’t know, because we’ve talked about these needs and bla bla. I believe at the moment we know where we are, we seem to know what we need, which is why we have a lot of young practitioners now. The grounds have been tested, it’s just for every individual to decide where you want to belong or how you want to operate your own thing. Do you want to do the Kunle Afolayan, Mo Abudu level, or do you want to stay in-between. Do you want to just do straight to DVD or straight to online, they’re all content.
But it is important to find a way to monetise it except if your father is so rich and you don’t need to… then it’s fine.
But for me, we have a structure on ground. Does that structure need to change, I’ll say not totally. But there is need to infuse a few things to turn it around and make it more standard and that way it could favour all of us better.
Thenetng: You are not somebody to go to TIFF and come back like that. So, what has Kunle Afolayan brought back from TIFF? What are the deals that you’ve signed? What are the agreements on ground, do you want to share them with Thenetng?
Kunle Afolayan: No, there is no… That TIFF run ehn… I’m not a fan of very big festivals. Reason is because, you go there, you see thousands of people, but a lot of times it’s as if you don’t see anybody.
And there’s something I said when I did the in-conversation thing, we need to have well standard sales agents in the country. In that way, the sales agents can take people’s films and travel to all of these festivals to sell it. The sales agent will prepare the ground, the sales agent will be the one doing all of the… I know that FilmOne is doing a lot of that and I know that Silverbird distribution is also doing a lot of that.
I think that is the level we are now, except if we’re saying we are only making our films for Nigerians. Even Africa, we haven’t been able to really penetrate the African market with our films. Most of the films there are pirated, bootlegged copies and this needs to change.
Of course, I had meetings in TIFF and after we came back, there was an email from a distribution company which was interested in seeing the film. But, I won’t announce that kind of a thing until there is something concrete because a lot of times you get such a request from different distributors and in the end it doesn’t term to nothing. So I’ll rather just leave that and move on, keep working and keep focusing.
Thenetng: How do you relax, for someone who works so so hard?
Kunle Afolayan: How do I relax? You see, in recent time I use one phone. Before now, that phone used to control me, but now I’m in control of everything around me. Once I’m home I switch the phone off, especially in the night. I pick the phone when I want to pick it, I talk when I want to talk. Because a lot of times, your phone is blasting, people on social media, everybody wants a response, strangers on Whatsapp, all of these things.
But pretty much I play basketball and once in a while, I swim. I have a lot of friends that we’ve come a long way and we usually do our thing, hang out, a few drinks, gist, talk about life. That is the stage I am now, I don’t chase shadows. I’m done with all of those things, I just want to take life easy. Of course our work does not allow that you take life easy because your brain will always… but the more you can control it, the better.
Thenetng: Is there, or are there any actors in Nollywood you want to work with?
Kunle Afolayan: I’m still going to work with a lot of people. You can imagine shooting three films. The budget of the film is small, so it depends on the negotiation. You know, if I like the person, if the person buys into it, why not.
I think it’s gonna give such an opportunity for me to work with people I’ve never worked with before, and some of the people I’ve worked with before. In fact, that’s the point of the reason I took the job because it’ll give me the chance to work with lots of talent in this country and I’m so looking forward to it.
Thenetng: In the video of you and Zuckerberg, you were telling him that on Facebook, we are the content creators and we don’t monetise our content and if we want our content to travel, we pay Facebook so that other people can see our content. If we understand what you were telling him, you were asking if there could be a situation like what we have on YouTube?
Kunle Afolayan: Yh, and you monetise it.
Thenetng: So, if that happens with Facebook, do you think it could go the way of YouTube?
Kunle Afolayan: But are you one of those who believe I said shit or I said rubbish or that the question was negative?
Thenetng: A lot of people said so. People have their opinions.
Kunle Afolayan: Some people munched together some comments they generated and they tried to spread it. Of course, it was everywhere and I think that was one of the most stupid thing anybody could do to a country like Nigeria where there is an opportunity to engage the owner of this platform. Such opportunity might never come again and maybe some of them are wondering, why him, why is he the one that is talking to the guy. You know beef now…
But the thing is, our major problem in this industry is distribution and this we have identified. And I’m tired of talking about the problems, now I like to talk about solutions to these problems. If you put your stuff on Facebook, you promote, you pay dollars and all of that.
I just said to him, when I put these things, I pay and that means I’ve been making you money, and he smiled. And I said, now people want to watch my content, can I put my feature-film, even if it is a short film, and you give me option of, I want to pay to watch this. You know, because everybody is on Facebook, and we have Nigerians who have 3million followers, some people have more. Out of the three million, even if it is one-hundred thousand people that pay to watch your stuff, don’t you think that would help the industry.
And it’s not just about Kunle Afolayan, this is an industry. So, for me I’ll say yes, it’s the way to go. The guy said they are considering it, whether he’s saying the truth or not, at least I’ve poured out my mind.
Thenetng: Have you been in touch since then? (laughter)
Kunle Afolayan: He’s not my friend now (laughs). No, those kind of people… When I got there, I realised there was no media, no press guy from Nigeria.
Thenetng: How do you think the emerging film market can leverage on digital communication online?
Kunle Afolayan: That’s what we’ve just said. But some people are saying what is ICT business with Nollywood. But really, that is the future, people will be watching films on the phone, on Ipad, VOD and all of that. That is the future, so the earlier we get that into our brains and make the right move to key into the future, the better for our lovers.
Thenetng: As a businessman and also a filmmaker, has it ever crossed your mind to say that you want to invest, apart from film making being a producer, you want to invest in something else, probably distribution, handle other angles in the industry?
Kunle Afolayan: Well, God willing, hopefully I’m trying to set up a proper film studio and a school. And if I get investors who would like to be part of this, then in a couple of months, we should be having at least a standard film school in Nigeria for once and proper sound stage studio where we can start generating a lot of content.
I have a very deep understanding of distribution, but do I want to do other businesses, I’ll say no. I want to stick to film and television, production, distribution, marketing that I know. So that my blood will not flow to the… It’s even broad, film business is broad, it’s large. It gives fulfillment, and for me that is what I need right now.
Thenetng: Amongst your children, have you seen any of them having the trait of being interested in what you do?
Kunle Afolayan: Well, they all say they want to be actors. Growing up, me and my other brothers, we were always saying we wanted to be actors, but when the reality of life sets in, they’ll know that…
Thenetng: But is there a particular one you have studied and you’ve seen that he seems he has an eye for video, he/she is interested in films?
Kunle Afolayan: Somehow at the moment, I don’t know maybe it’s the same thing that my father did to us. My father then, will allow you get close a little bit, and before you know it, he’s chased you away. He did that because he didn’t want us to get distracted and he would say to us, education is first and this is the same thing I say to my children. When they grow up, they can do whatever they want, or rather after school or while in school, they can do whatever it is they want to do.
But at the moment, children can get easily distracted. So, I’ll rather have them concentrate and focus. If I notice any special talent or gift in any of them, of course I will always be willing and ready to help build such a child, but for now, they should read.
Thenetng: Going back to Mark Zuckerberg’s visit, one Nollywood practitioner recently went on social media rant in saying that why should they refer to those of you present at the event as the big stars of Nollywood and he was very angry and everything. What’s your reaction to that, do you think the anger is well placed?
Kunle Afolayan: The same way a critic will critique a film and say it’s bad and the audience will say it’s good, is the same way I look at those kind of a thing. That’s his own opinion.
In fact, there are two of such now. There is that says… I think it was Omotola (Jalade-Ekeinde), whether she said it or not I don’t know. But I saw something where they said she said how come she was not invited to the thing. Then later I saw her comment saying she’s wondering why people took that serious that she was joking.
Thenetng: (Cuts in)… I think it was more a case of ‘where was I, I should have been there’
Kunle Afolayan: You know, this social media ehn, it has its bad side. I’m just sorry for some of the Nigerian youths because lot of people use this for positivity and they are making money and they are making impact. Some kids, or some youths would rather use it for negativity and to crack jokes and to try bring people down. For me it’s a shame, it’s really a shame.
Like now, I’m about to start a show called Kulture-Centrik which is going to be a monthly gig on the mainland and the only media material we passed out was only passed out through social media. And you need to see the amount of calls we’ve received from people who are interested in being a part of it and all of that.
That is what you call positivity. We are using it to enhance our business and we’re also using it to engage people. But, for some people it is totally a different thing, Snapchat and all these… some people just want to be popular for no reason.
I think we should… maybe orientation, like your platform, you people should be doing workshop to orientate people about why social media even exists and what people should be doing with it. And why they should use it to their advantage, instead of engaging in all of these funny activities.
But really, everybody is entitled to their opinion. If someone comes now and review my film, if I don’t like the person’s review, I’ll say to myself I don’t like… but the person has written it, it’s his problem. But those who have contrary opinion, probably will respond to the person or they will keep it in their mind and they won’t care and they’ll still go and see the film.
And that is what it is all over the world. There are PR media where we all know it is bad, but we’ll pay to say it is good. That is different from, we all know it is fair, or it is good, but because there are some itches that it could be better. Who are you to say it could be better, when you’re not an authority, you’re not a director, you’re not a producer, you don’t even know nothing about film, but you just sit there and say ‘maybe it’s too dark, maybe the camera should have been from this place.
Thenetng: At a point the critic is also a viewer. But, don’t you think that these people have the right to say that ‘look, I think that this acting could have been better here, this should have been resolved earlier or quickly, or later’. Don’t you think there is a place for critics actually in the industry. Because the argument is always, ‘have you made a film, are you a filmmaker, so you should not be able to say anything…
Kunle Afolayan: No, I’m not saying… It’s like saying a doctor, you go to a physician and you’re there and he hasn’t diagnosed you or anything, he looked at you and he says to you, ‘I think you have malaria’ and I think when you have malaria, your eyes will be red and bla bla bla. As the patient, Would you take such doctor serious?
Thenetng: That’s science…
Kunle Afolayan: No no no, it’s the same. Film making is a walk of life. Some people studied, they go to the university, they learn to be creative. When you do a film, do you know how many people get involved in film making? You have your sound department, do you understand, you have the different department.
So, when you’re judging or when you’re doing your critique… And the reason why I said some people are stupid and I’ll always say it that some people don’t understand this thing is this, a director can intentionally shoot a scene to be dark. I can say I don’t wanna reveal this guy’s face, totally, for mood reasons, and for whatever reasons best known to you. Then someone will see it and say ‘how come the room is dark, and how come we can’t see his entire face’. Why? Because they are used to the Nollywood kind of film where they bounce light up, and they just want to see everything in the room and there’s no aesthetics and all of that.
So, it is wrong of anyone… except if you’re an authority and you have an understanding of it. Look, I can even tell you that I’ve met with professors of film, doctors of film, in festivals and we’ll argue. We’ll argue because, they’re not practitioners, they’re scholars. And how they earned the doctorate degree and being a professor is because they picked the information from different people about films and how to do films. But they’re not filmmakers, so a lot of times, they go off. As a matter of fact, I read one of my father’s interview that he granted in the 80s and he said the same thing about critics.
All over the world, it’s the same thing. If you go and read studio’s response to some of these things. And that’s why I said there’s difference between PR and proper critique. There are some reviews of CEO that I have read and within me I’ll say, ‘you’re right, I could have done it better, but I couldn’t do it because I don’t have what it takes to do it’.
You know, there are some glaring things you know that oh, this person is just messing with you, and there some you’ll know that oh, this person is just being cheeky. You know with the rundown syndrome that we do in this country, maybe that’s what the person is trying to do. But, like I said, I don’t think it is fair to judge and base films of different genre in the same platform and pedestrian.
Thenetng: Finally, can you tell us about Kulture-Centrik?
Kunle Afolayan: Ok, Kulture-Centrik is gig – party. You know, we are Mainland people and a lot of times when we want to have fun, we have to drive to the Island, come back in the night, wasted and tired.
And because I’m a cultural person, I just thought about what can we do, and I have a friend, Yinka Oyedeji who runs a Massimo at the airport hotel, the pool-side area. So, we thought about what can we put together that would not be just another ‘come and dance, come and jump up kind of thing’, how do we tie to our culture. When I say culture, it’s not just Yoruba culture, though the main one is gonna be my thing, I’m a Yoruba man, so we’re gonna celebrate a lot of Yoruba culture – arts, lifestyle and all of that.
But subsequent ones, we can do Kulture-Centrik with Alibaba and Urhobo bla bla bla, and that way we’ll have Urhobo musicians, we’ll have Urhobo food, we’ll have all of those things.
We can say Kulture-Centrik with Phyno, and the Igbo culture with all the theme and all of that. But this one, we’re gonna have Ajobiewe do chants in Yoruba, we’re gonna have Salawa Abeni, we’re gonna have Jimi Solanke to represent the old school, we’re gonna have Adekunle Gold, GT (the Guitarman) and a lot of other people.
It’s just my own way of celebrating Nigeria, it’s gonna be a monthly thing – last Friday of every month. The first edition is free, but subsequently we would have to be taking gate fee which would be little.
Thenetng: How much?
Kunle Afolayan: I’m not sure yet, but it would be close to nothing because we want everybody to be able to afford it.
Thenetng: So, this is a Kunle Afolayan project in collaboration with Massimo?
Kunle Afolayan: Yeah
Thenetng: About what you do, culture relative, In Hollywood they shoot naked women, unclad, full-frontal. Can that happen in an Afolayan movie?
Kunle Afolayan: Afolayan or Nigerian movie?
Thenetng: (Laughter) An Afolayan movie. Can you ever do that in your movie?
Kunle Afolayan: I will never say never, but it could happen. I saw something like that in my father’s film, Kadara, which was shot in 1980. And this was because that was what the scene required. These are virgin girls who worked in the shrine, of course they were not covered from (gesticulates) head to waist, it was bare.
But it wasn’t shot in a suggestive way. That’s why sometimes, filming is a craft. You can shoot a naked woman in a way that nobody there would feel nothing. You could film it in a way that you’re trying to paint something, because film is paint.
(Describes) You can film from sides, above, below, depending on what you want to see, it’s different. So, as a filmmaker, it’s your call to decide what do I wanna sell, what do I wanna paint with this particular scenario. Of course, if you say naked, everybody will freak out, but there are ways to paint someone who is even clothed and it will still be suggestive.
So, for me, I’m open but, (speaks in Yoruba) religion might not permit, culture also might not permit.
Thenetng: Ok, thank you very much. It’s been a wonderful chat.
Kunle Afolayan: (Jokes) You people shouldn’t chase my customers away from the cinema.
All laugh…
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